I agree PARTLY with your sentiment. I feel as though having to pick up a
headstone and look underneath is horrible. However, many boxes at least here in
CT, have been placed in more tactful places within the cemetery, whether they
are in the stone wall surrounding the cemetery or in the hollow of a tree
etc.... Many of the boxes here in CT are history driven, taking you to the
gravesites of semi-famous people in local history. I feel as though these boxes
have taught me much about local history.

I feel that the boxes should be hidden with respect.

Just my thoughts
Music Woman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would have to say that the cemetery boxes are among my favorite.

To be honset, I'm a genealogist (amatuer) and I think cemeteries are
beautiful. I also think they're very valuable, and that we should respect them. It
makes me very sad when I see evidence of late-night parties (beer cans, empty
candy wrappers, etc) in a graveyard.

I like the cemetery boxes because usually, at the time I visit, I seem to be
the only one there, and it's very peaceful. Most of the cemetery boxes I've
found have been in very old grave yards, and I enjoy reading the old stones,
for the artistic/historical value. I like that the boxes brought me there,
because I would otherwise not know where most of them were.

Having said that, I've never been instructed to lift a headstone or move
anything in any way. The boxes I've found in cemeteries have all been under trees
on the edge of the graveyard, or buried into a stone wall where they can be
accessed by moving only a couple rocks, and then replaced so that the wall is
intact when you're finished. I also wouldn't lift a headstone if that was in
the directions. That's disrespectful.

Just my opinion.

Chrissy

I have a series of letterboxes called "Forgotten Souls" that are all based on very old cemeteries. Part of my interest in cemeteries comes, as someone else has already mentioned, from the geneology aspect. Another for me is the wonderful art to be found on the old stones and the poetry and sentiments that were written. The third point for me is a bit inherited ~ my father was a stone cutter who often sat in graveyards cutting letters into stones when the second half of a married couple had died. My Dad would take us to the cemeteries to see his work when he was finished. I have many fond memories of playing near my grandparents graves while my parents cleaned things up for Memorial Day. At the turn of the last century cemeteries were designed as places to walk, sit, even picnic. That said, I would also want you to know that while my boxes lead people to look for certain stones which tell a bit of local history, the boxes are all hidden on the edges of the graveyards ~ behind a
stone wall, in the roots of a tree, etc. My clues also carry a reminder to respect the sacredness of the site. Hiding a box under a headstone would offend me as well. I think that appropriately placed boxes in cemeteries can create a connection to the past and an awreness of local history. Just my thoughts.
~ Memlili

dmoorletterboxer@aol.com wrote:
I recently checked out some boxes placed in PA, they were listed on the LBNA
website, the clues stated that they were hidden in graveyards, I could not
believe that someone would place boxes in such a site.

I would like to know others opinions on this, having started boxing on
Dartmoor more than 12 years ago, prior to moving to the US, boxes would NEVER be
placed in such a sensitive site on Dartmoor, it goes completely against the code
of conduct.

One of these clues actually instructed the searcher to lift a headstone,
sorry but I will not do that, I found the place that the first box was hidden,
confirmed that it was there and left in disgust, I did not bother to look for the
other two.
I think that placing boxes in such a place shows a complete lack of respect.

I would like to hear your opinions.

The Irish Boxer.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Just yesterday I followed clues through a cemetary to locate a box. I had mixed emotions about entering a cemetary for clues but it was a wonderful experience. I read the tombstones and touched the old granite as I looked for clues. I felt especially moved when I saw a gravestone of a baby with the date 1944 and someone was still tending a little garden at the site. Some of the stones were toppled over but not vandalized...they wer just old and worn. I noticed dates back to the early 1800s. It was a moving experience. It never would have occurred to me to take a walk through a cemetary on a warm September day....While I was wandering across the grass noticing all the names and dates the last thing on my mind was a letterbox. MadCats

dmoorletterboxer@aol.com wrote:I recently checked out some boxes placed in PA, they were listed on the LBNA
website, the clues stated that they were hidden in graveyards, I could not
believe that someone would place boxes in such a site.

I would like to know others opinions on this, having started boxing on
Dartmoor more than 12 years ago, prior to moving to the US, boxes would NEVER be
placed in such a sensitive site on Dartmoor, it goes completely against the code
of conduct.

One of these clues actually instructed the searcher to lift a headstone,
sorry but I will not do that, I found the place that the first box was hidden,
confirmed that it was there and left in disgust, I did not bother to look for the
other two.
I think that placing boxes in such a place shows a complete lack of respect.

I would like to hear your opinions.

The Irish Boxer.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One of the best experiences of my letterboxing (and I am kind of new to this) was a walk through a cemetary yesterday...following clues. The box was not in the cemetary, but just outside of it in a rather gloomy little forest which I entered through a neglected and broken gate. The sense of touching the past was very moving. It was peaceful and caused me to reflect....As I mentioned before, the last thing on my mind as I wandered throught the graveyard was letterboxing. MadCats

Mary Ellen Martel wrote:I have a series of letterboxes called "Forgotten Souls" that are all based on very old cemeteries. Part of my interest in cemeteries comes, as someone else has already mentioned, from the geneology aspect. Another for me is the wonderful art to be found on the old stones and the poetry and sentiments that were written. The third point for me is a bit inherited ~ my father was a stone cutter who often sat in graveyards cutting letters into stones when the second half of a married couple had died. My Dad would take us to the cemeteries to see his work when he was finished. I have many fond memories of playing near my grandparents graves while my parents cleaned things up for Memorial Day. At the turn of the last century cemeteries were designed as places to walk, sit, even picnic. That said, I would also want you to know that while my boxes lead people to look for certain stones which tell a bit of local history, the boxes are all
hidden on the edges of the graveyards ~ behind a
stone wall, in the roots of a tree, etc. My clues also carry a reminder to respect the sacredness of the site. Hiding a box under a headstone would offend me as well. I think that appropriately placed boxes in cemeteries can create a connection to the past and an awreness of local history. Just my thoughts.
~ Memlili

dmoorletterboxer@aol.com wrote:
I recently checked out some boxes placed in PA, they were listed on the LBNA
website, the clues stated that they were hidden in graveyards, I could not
believe that someone would place boxes in such a site.

I would like to know others opinions on this, having started boxing on
Dartmoor more than 12 years ago, prior to moving to the US, boxes would NEVER be
placed in such a sensitive site on Dartmoor, it goes completely against the code
of conduct.

One of these clues actually instructed the searcher to lift a headstone,
sorry but I will not do that, I found the place that the first box was hidden,
confirmed that it was there and left in disgust, I did not bother to look for the
other two.
I think that placing boxes in such a place shows a complete lack of respect.

I would like to hear your opinions.

The Irish Boxer.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In general, not all letterboxes are intended for all letterboxers.
Certainly, desecration of any object or disturbance of any particular
setting, natural or manmade, is never contemplated and beyond the
bounds of using good judgement when placing or finding a letterbox.
For whatever reason, if you are averse to or offended by the location
of a box then passing on it certainly your perogative.

Alafair


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, dmoorletterboxer@a... wrote:
> I recently checked out some boxes placed in PA,..., the clues
stated that they were hidden in graveyards, I could not
> believe that someone would place boxes in such a site.
>
> I would like to know others opinions on this,...

--- dmoorletterboxer@aol.com wrote:

> I recently checked out some boxes placed in PA, they
> were listed on the LBNA
> website, the clues stated that they were hidden in
> graveyards, I could not
> believe that someone would place boxes in such a
> site.
>
> I would like to know others opinions on this, having
> started boxing on
> Dartmoor more than 12 years ago, prior to moving to
> the US, boxes would NEVER be
> placed in such a sensitive site on Dartmoor, it goes
> completely against the code
> of conduct.
>
> One of these clues actually instructed the searcher
> to lift a headstone,
> sorry but I will not do that, I found the place that
> the first box was hidden,
> confirmed that it was there and left in disgust, I
> did not bother to look for the
> other two.
> I think that placing boxes in such a place shows a
> complete lack of respect.
>
> I would like to hear your opinions.
>
> The Irish Boxer.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
I totally disagree with you. I think cemeteries are a
lovely place to hide boxes. As a geneology nut and
grand-daughter of genealogy nut I've spent alot of
time in cemeteries. Boxes should be placed with
respect but I think it is perfectly OK. As with the
Underground railroad series in Lancaster. These boxes
were placed with permission and were a wonderful
learning experience.
Mizscarlet



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I agree with MaryAnn. If done properly cemetery boxes can be a great place to hide boxes. I found 2 in New Englad, and spent a lot of times reading the gravestones, learning about the residents and their struggles dung their lifetimes. It was moving and fascinating. And the Underground Railroad series in Lancaster is just wonderful. I learned about the first cemetery in this are not to specify what color someone had to be to be buried there, a local resident who was so against discrimination he insisted on being buried there and the epitaph on his tomb was wonderful. I did know Lacaster played a part in the Underground Railroad and really enjoyed learning more about this part of my state. Also, I believe the placer had permission with at least one of the boxes planted in a very old, historical cemetery.Now the lifting the tombstone part of the clues you describe does sound out of line to me, but I would have to check it out first to see if the placer is crossing not respecting the
area as we all should be whenever planting any box, anywhere.

MaryAnn Lockard wrote: I totally disagree with you. I think cemeteries are a
lovely place to hide boxes. As a geneology nut and
grand-daughter of genealogy nut I've spent alot of
time in cemeteries. Boxes should be placed with
respect but I think it is perfectly OK. As with the
Underground railroad series in Lancaster. These boxes
were placed with permission and were a wonderful
learning experience.
Mizscarlet



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Graveyards: Yes.
Moving headstones: No
BTW, does that strike anyone else as odd? I mean, aren't headstones
usually larger/heavier than one can lift? If a headstone were
small/light enough to be easily moved, it would defeat the whole
purpose of being there as a permanent place marker.
Aud

Check out my "FF for Ride Like Dean" post. It's a fine example of
drawing people to a spot to share in the memory. I would never know
about it if not for letterboxing. The whole idea of graveyards and
tombstones is to announce a person's life to people who are there.
Who could read it if they're not there. The people who show the
greatest disrespect for the dead are the ones who never visit with
them.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that moving a headstone
is out of line and the placer should change the location. However,
the issue here is not just about cemeteries. It's about all sorts of
monuments and scenic treasures. If a letterbox draws people to these
places and the clues draw attention to what those places are about,
than it is a benefit to everyone. However, if it only sends someone
to a place with no interpretation and causes damage, it is a
detriment to everyone. Right now the National Park Service takes the
second view. They probably got a bad first impression.

Forester
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, dmoorletterboxer@a... wrote:
> I recently checked out some boxes placed in PA, they were listed on
the LBNA
> website, the clues stated that they were hidden in graveyards, I
could not
> believe that someone would place boxes in such a site.
>
> I would like to know others opinions on this, having started boxing
on
> Dartmoor more than 12 years ago, prior to moving to the US, boxes
would NEVER be
> placed in such a sensitive site on Dartmoor, it goes completely
against the code
> of conduct.
>
> One of these clues actually instructed the searcher to lift a
headstone,
> sorry but I will not do that, I found the place that the first box
was hidden,
> confirmed that it was there and left in disgust, I did not bother
to look for the
> other two.
> I think that placing boxes in such a place shows a complete lack of
respect.
>
> I would like to hear your opinions.
>
> The Irish Boxer.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We got one out of a hole in a tree in a cemetary....walk nicely and its no
big deal.

At 09:41 PM 9/11/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>I recently checked out some boxes placed in PA, they were listed on the LBNA
>website, the clues stated that they were hidden in graveyards, I could not
>believe that someone would place boxes in such a site.
>
>I would like to know others opinions on this, having started boxing on
>Dartmoor more than 12 years ago, prior to moving to the US, boxes would
>NEVER be
>placed in such a sensitive site on Dartmoor, it goes completely against
>the code
>of conduct.
>
>One of these clues actually instructed the searcher to lift a headstone,
>sorry but I will not do that, I found the place that the first box was
>hidden,
>confirmed that it was there and left in disgust, I did not bother to look
>for the
>other two.
>I think that placing boxes in such a place shows a complete lack of respect.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions.
>
>The Irish Boxer.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I suspect that the box in question is in a very old cemetery where stones have fallen over. Also, in very old cemeteries there were both family headstones and smaller stones for individuals within the family. Others had very small footstones in addition to headstones. My "Forgotten Souls" Maine series is a case in point. "Jennie & Thankful" can be found in a very old cemetery, long ago abandoned and all but invisible from the road when the leaves are on the trees. Many of the stones in this cemetery have fallen over, including several that are smaller than 8"x10". Someone has paid a little bit of attention to this cemetery and has propped some of the little stones up against the many trees that have grown up here. When I last checked on this box, someone had used one of those little footstones to cover my box. I put the stone back where I knew it belonged, and have added a line to my clues stating that letterboxers are not to use the cemetery stones to cover my box.

I think this is proving to be a very interesting discussion. Personally, I think that if boxes are hidden carefully, with great thought taken as to how people can be led to interesting history without causing any sort of harm to the area, cemeteries can be wonderful learning opportunities.

Again, just thoughts from a cemetery lover!

~ Memlili

cahillymom wrote:
Graveyards: Yes.
Moving headstones: No
BTW, does that strike anyone else as odd? I mean, aren't headstones
usually larger/heavier than one can lift? If a headstone were
small/light enough to be easily moved, it would defeat the whole
purpose of being there as a permanent place marker.
Aud


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I love the way you said this....Of course the headstone moving is way out of line...

Having a place to "visit" with a loved one is very important to many people. Many gravestones are lovingly chosen to let the spirit of the one who has passed live on for all to see. Respect is the issue here. Leave no traces, right?

Doglvrs

----- Original Message -----
From: John
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 9:49 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Letterboxing in graveyards, Question


Check out my "FF for Ride Like Dean" post. It's a fine example of
drawing people to a spot to share in the memory. I would never know
about it if not for letterboxing. The whole idea of graveyards and
tombstones is to announce a person's life to people who are there.
Who could read it if they're not there. The people who show the
greatest disrespect for the dead are the ones who never visit with
them.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that moving a headstone
is out of line and the placer should change the location. However,
the issue here is not just about cemeteries. It's about all sorts of
monuments and scenic treasures. If a letterbox draws people to these
places and the clues draw attention to what those places are about,
than it is a benefit to everyone. However, if it only sends someone
to a place with no interpretation and causes damage, it is a
detriment to everyone. Right now the National Park Service takes the
second view. They probably got a bad first impression.

Forester
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, dmoorletterboxer@a... wrote:
> I recently checked out some boxes placed in PA, they were listed on
the LBNA
> website, the clues stated that they were hidden in graveyards, I
could not
> believe that someone would place boxes in such a site.
>
> I would like to know others opinions on this, having started boxing
on
> Dartmoor more than 12 years ago, prior to moving to the US, boxes
would NEVER be
> placed in such a sensitive site on Dartmoor, it goes completely
against the code
> of conduct.
>
> One of these clues actually instructed the searcher to lift a
headstone,
> sorry but I will not do that, I found the place that the first box
was hidden,
> confirmed that it was there and left in disgust, I did not bother
to look for the
> other two.
> I think that placing boxes in such a place shows a complete lack of
respect.
>
> I would like to hear your opinions.
>
> The Irish Boxer.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Personally, I love cemeteries and look forward to boxes placed respectfully in them. There is so much to learn from visits to cemeteries, especially the old ones, not to mention the opportunity to reflect on how precious time on earth really is. The art found on turn of the century stones (at least here in New England) is fascinating. You can tell a little something about the person buried by their gravestone, and if you spend some time in cemeteries you can get to know the style of old carvers. While doing a little research recently on an ancient cemetery found in the woods, I learned that wheat and a sickle carved on a stone represented reaping of a soul and gathering a harvest for the next world. That an hourglass depicted the fleeting passage of time. That Angels were carved to assist in the passage from this world to the next. That a broken tree meant that life was cut short. I don't think that placing boxes in cemeteries is in bad taste (I've done it myself!)... if done
properly, it could be a lasting tribute to be shared, and should be considered a priveledge if found. MayEve

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Memlili...anyone who has an interest in wandering through old grave yards will not dispute you. The walk is serene and thought provoking. Touching the old stones is moving. I would like to think that my ancestors would love a visit. In fact....I think my next plant will be near Grandpa. (respectfully so...) MadCats

Mary Ellen Martel wrote:I suspect that the box in question is in a very old cemetery where stones have fallen over. Also, in very old cemeteries there were both family headstones and smaller stones for individuals within the family. Others had very small footstones in addition to headstones. My "Forgotten Souls" Maine series is a case in point. "Jennie & Thankful" can be found in a very old cemetery, long ago abandoned and all but invisible from the road when the leaves are on the trees. Many of the stones in this cemetery have fallen over, including several that are smaller than 8"x10". Someone has paid a little bit of attention to this cemetery and has propped some of the little stones up against the many trees that have grown up here. When I last checked on this box, someone had used one of those little footstones to cover my box. I put the stone back where I knew it belonged, and have added a line to my clues stating that letterboxers are not to use
the cemetery stones to cover my box.

I think this is proving to be a very interesting discussion. Personally, I think that if boxes are hidden carefully, with great thought taken as to how people can be led to interesting history without causing any sort of harm to the area, cemeteries can be wonderful learning opportunities.

Again, just thoughts from a cemetery lover!

~ Memlili

cahillymom wrote:
Graveyards: Yes.
Moving headstones: No
BTW, does that strike anyone else as odd? I mean, aren't headstones
usually larger/heavier than one can lift? If a headstone were
small/light enough to be easily moved, it would defeat the whole
purpose of being there as a permanent place marker.
Aud


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Blue Heron...

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have located 2 boxes in graveyards ("4 ft Under" - Rockford, IL & "The Buffy Box" - Milwaukee, WI). Both were hidden in respectful places, ie: near a wall, in a tree hollow, under a bush, etc. I enjoyed finding both boxes, and am considering hiding a box in a local cemetary.. The cemetaries were quite and peaceful. I got to see many unique and old headstones, some dating to the mid-1800's. Perhaps the spirits of the departed like when the living visit?

I believe it's okay to hide boxes in cemetaries in they are placed in a respectful manner and do not disturb gravesites. I feel the boxes should be placed in bushes, trees, holes in walls, under rocks...not under headstones or on/in graves in anyway. We should all respect the final resting places of the dead, because they are someone's loved one. Would you like if the graves/headstones of your loved ones were disturbed?



-Laughing Coyote

Cherry Valley, IL


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I hope it's too early to start planning this but, for
anyone who has been to or seen a picture of Cranmere,
I think something like that would be great for my
final resting place. I like the idea of people coming
to visit and taking away a good memory.
Mizscarlet
>




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Seeing that I've been to Cranmere Pool, I can think of many letterboxers who
may be adding a Cranmere Pool type contraption to their gravestones when they
finally leave this earth!!!!!!!!

;-)
Music Woman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nope, not too early. My kids already know all of my wishes. After losing my Mom suddenly in February and scrambling to arrange everything I decided to make things easier on my kids and let them know what I want.

MaryAnn Lockard wrote:I hope it's too early to start planning this but, for
anyone who has been to or seen a picture of Cranmere,
I think something like that would be great for my
final resting place. I like the idea of people coming
to visit and taking away a good memory.
Mizscarlet
>




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As I've noted in my Forgotten Souls series clues and on here, my Dad was a stone cutter. He did his own headstone. In true Yankee fashion he didn't see why we should have to pay someone to do it when he could perfectly well sit there and do it himself. Totally creeped out my younger sister! I thought it was sensible and kind of cool. (I guess there's a bit of the old Yankee in me too!)
Memlili

Hikers_n_ Hounds wrote:
Nope, not too early. My kids already know all of my wishes. After losing my Mom suddenly in February and scrambling to arrange everything I decided to make things easier on my kids and let them know what I want.

MaryAnn Lockard wrote:I hope it's too early to start planning this but, for
anyone who has been to or seen a picture of Cranmere,
I think something like that would be great for my
final resting place. I like the idea of people coming
to visit and taking away a good memory.
Mizscarlet
>




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Mary Ellen Martel wrot
> o my Dad was a stone cutter. He did his own
> headstone. In true Yankee fashion he didn't see why
> we should have to pay someone to do it when he could
> perfectly well sit there and do it himself.
> Memlili
>
> Hikers_n_ Hounds wrote:
> Nope, not too early. My kids already know all of my
> wishes. After losing my Mom suddenly in February and
> scrambling to arrange everything I decided to make
> things easier on my kids and let them know what I
> want.

>All this back and forth got me thinking about
graveyards. Are there cultural differences about how
we think about this subject. Do people feel
differently in Europe. I grew up hanging around
graveyards with my grandmother, cleaning up and doing
research. In my little southern hometown the cemetary
is where everyone goes to walk for exercise. Also some
of the graves are quite unique, with framed photos
mounted on the stones and pictures of the dececed's
car. People also leave little tokens, stones, angels,
small toys.
> Mizscarlet
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


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--- MaryAnn Lockard wrote:

> --- Mary Ellen Martel wrot
> > o my Dad was a stone cutter. He did his own
> > headstone. In true Yankee fashion he didn't see
> why
> > we should have to pay someone to do it when he
> could
> > perfectly well sit there and do it himself.
> > Memlili
> >
> > Hikers_n_ Hounds
> wrote:
> > Nope, not too early. My kids already know all of
> my
> > wishes. After losing my Mom suddenly in February
> and
> > scrambling to arrange everything I decided to make
> > things easier on my kids and let them know what I
> > want.
>
> >All this back and forth got me thinking about
> graveyards. Are there cultural differences about how
> we think about this subject. Do people feel
> differently in Europe. I grew up hanging around
> graveyards with my grandmother, cleaning up and
> doing
> research. In my little southern hometown the
> cemetary
> is where everyone goes to walk for exercise. Also
> some
> of the graves are quite unique, with framed photos
> mounted on the stones and pictures of the dececed's
> car. People also leave little tokens, stones,
> angels,
> small toys.
> > Mizscarlet
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Whoops! I was typing quickly and spelling phoneticly
in my head and then sent without spell check. I realyy
am a horrible speller.
Mizscarlet



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